tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post1379432553056715461..comments2024-02-28T23:51:57.118+04:00Comments on Anthromadness: Copts: an example of Pre-Islamic and Arab conquest Egypt?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-83574561045036425302017-06-04T01:57:33.040+04:002017-06-04T01:57:33.040+04:00Hello Awale! I have come across an interview of Mo...Hello Awale! I have come across an interview of Mostafa Hefny, an Egyptian who as encountered several conflicts regarding race in America. Here is the video of interest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XUPZokMb6A<br /><br />After reading your article, I believe Mostafa lacks critical scientific information on the origins of his people. Would you mind pointing out some of his inconsistencies?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14760203948903595624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-50395865792594209922017-05-19T00:51:14.209+04:002017-05-19T00:51:14.209+04:00"both horners and sudanese West Euroasian adm..."both horners and sudanese West Euroasian admixture happened during a prehistoric back migration through sudan."<br /><br />I'm aware:<br /><br />http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9499-Gedmatch-populations-approximation&p=208306&viewfull=1#post208306<br /><br />"sudanese nubians and arabs are the same btw. the sudanese arabs are nubians with one of their paternal ancestors being arab. the only ethnic arab tribe in sudan is rashida."<br /><br />Only somewhat true. It depends on the Sudanese Arab subgroup, some were formerly Chadic speakers like various Baggara-Arabs but yes, the more Nile-Valley farmer types were often Nubian speakers until they were Arabized and acquired some Arabian admixture (most noticeable through some of their J1 subclades). But the two populations are again not "the same". It again really depends on the Sudanese Arab subgroup you're speaking of... Some have notably more West-Eurasian admixture than most Nubians in Sudan ('least the samples I've seen) while others are indeed practically identical to them in term s of autosomal DNA.Awale Ismailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15197677144409342318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-21420256933227301302017-05-12T17:40:49.284+04:002017-05-12T17:40:49.284+04:00both horners and sudanese West Euroasian admixture...both horners and sudanese West Euroasian admixture happened during a prehistoric back migration through sudan. sudanese nubians and arabs are the same btw. the sudanese arabs are nubians with one of their paternal ancestors being arab. the only ethnic arab tribe in sudan is rashida. Shahin Tarighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17444253408625999866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-69345397332440651002016-12-22T10:27:23.512+04:002016-12-22T10:27:23.512+04:00http://www.unz.com/gnxp/the-egyptians-live/?utm_so...http://www.unz.com/gnxp/the-egyptians-live/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=the-egyptians-liveAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01646439425801110303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-9207237817143137722016-09-29T00:32:43.268+04:002016-09-29T00:32:43.268+04:00Just Nubians and Arabs, although some of the same ...Just Nubians and Arabs, although some of the same applies to the Southern ones.jparadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16998158278342485362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-58784792246363936832016-09-28T13:53:53.079+04:002016-09-28T13:53:53.079+04:00You mean Sudanese in general ("South" &a...You mean Sudanese in general ("South" & "North") or just Nubians and the "Arabs"? I see your point in both cases. They do have more West-Central African admixture (which is not present in the Horn). Groups like Dinkas have maybe 20-35% or so while Nubians and co. have less but definitely have some notable amounts. But yes, the majority of their "African" ancestry seems to be anchored in the "East African cluster" often formed by Nilo-Saharan speakers like Dinkas and Anuaks.Awale Ismailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15197677144409342318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-29475642496727083532016-09-28T04:33:48.419+04:002016-09-28T04:33:48.419+04:00It's interesting how much the sudanese resembl...It's interesting how much the sudanese resemble horners, always assumed they were more west african-like. The Copts seem to be largely related to them, only with less native East African ancestry, while Muslim Egyptians seem to be, in fact, Arab Egytpians, at least the sample featured in that study.jparadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16998158278342485362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-35259819206991221362016-07-29T04:15:34.521+04:002016-07-29T04:15:34.521+04:00Can I get a source for Coptic y-DNA? E-M35 is of N...Can I get a source for Coptic y-DNA? E-M35 is of Northeast African origin. Correct? Nonetheless the Copts are certainly an interesting bunch and I largely blame the country of Egypt for us not having DNA results for the Ancient Egyptians as they could release these results but they're holding these results hostage. Most DNA studies we do have on Ancient Egyptians are from STR (Short Tandem Repeat) studies that are known for their high error rate when it comes to sequencing of the human genome and studies that are largely inconsistent and contradictory in nature.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-75744291477879467622016-07-19T21:45:15.114+04:002016-07-19T21:45:15.114+04:00"Would this indicate they're heavily Arab..."Would this indicate they're heavily Arabian admixed? I mean even if their existence does predate that of the Arab conquest. I wouldn't surprised if they originally came from the Achaemenids, Christianized during Byzantine Egypt, and then (more recently) largely Arabian admixed."<br /><br />Being very similar to Arabians on a basal level doesn't necessarily imply admixture from them. It's like with Western Jews and the Maltese which are two very, basally, similar population-sets but when you get a look at their Y-DNA and mtDNA profiles; they're clearly distinct populations, as far as I recall. Similar case here. Copts seemingly have a lot of Y-DNA E-M35 subclades (more than they have J1) whilst most Arabians are overflowing with J1 founder-effects.<br /><br />And there's seemingly not much proof of "Achaeminid" (Iranian) admixture. They don't have enough Caucasus-Hunter-Gather-related ancestry and/or ANE-related ancestry that differs from those of Southern Levantines and various Arabians, nor do they show the right Haplogroups to indicate such admixture. <br />Awale Ismailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15197677144409342318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-65537645320610776122016-07-14T00:43:43.441+04:002016-07-14T00:43:43.441+04:00"They basically cluster with Yemenite Jews, N..."They basically cluster with Yemenite Jews, Negevite Bedouins and Saudis."<br /><br />Would this indicate they're heavily Arabian admixed? I mean even if their existence does predate that of the Arab conquest. I wouldn't surprised if they originally came from the Achaemenids, Christianized during Byzantine Egypt, and then (more recently) largely Arabian admixed. However a lot of Copts look whiter than modern Arab Egyptians.<br /><br />I have a hard time believing they're natives to Northeast Africa.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-47434600722458073032016-07-13T12:08:25.963+04:002016-07-13T12:08:25.963+04:00They're certainly not "Greeks" based...They're certainly not "Greeks" based on how they cluster in PCAs and their various mixture models. They basically cluster with Yemenite Jews, Negevite Bedouins and Saudis. They don't seem to show any signs of notable Southern European admixture or any notable shift toward Caucasian populations but you're right on the Levantine comparison; they are shifted, at the very least, toward Southern Levantines (Negevite Bedouins, Palestinians, Jordanians etc.) but this doesn't really mean they come from these populations, they're just very similar to them on a basal level.<br /><br />As for where I, personally, think they come from... I think they're very much "natives" to Northeast Africa (perhaps particularly Lower Egypt) whose ancestors, over-time, absorbed waves of admixture from West Asia (particularly the Levant) since perhaps the days of the Hyksos. We'll see someday via ancient DNA. :-)Awale Ismailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15197677144409342318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-41541835138745678732016-07-13T11:34:46.376+04:002016-07-13T11:34:46.376+04:00I always heard the Cops were descendants of the Gr...I always heard the Cops were descendants of the Greeks. Any truth to this? Some of them (phenotypically) look largely largely Levantine or Caucus to me. Nonetheless if you had to take a guess on the origin of the Copts -- what would your guess or theory be overall?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-67779064248816364092016-05-26T12:12:38.876+04:002016-05-26T12:12:38.876+04:00They likely are, in some part, descended from the ...They likely are, in some part, descended from the "Ancient Egyptians" but I don't think they're their unbroken and direct descendants as there likely were (i.e. the Hyksos) West Asian incursions into Egypt since its early days (likely bringing in new ancestral elements) but the only way to answer your question with any sort of "concrete-ness" would be to get substantial Ancient Egyptian ancient DNA from numerous periods and then compare those samples to modern Copts. And that, sadly, hasn't been done yet, and if it has; it hasn't been made public. Which is why I cautiously just assume they're likely a good example of pre-Islamic/Christian Egypt (likely more true for Lower Egypt). Awale Ismailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15197677144409342318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-83777329349877326972016-05-24T22:07:41.662+04:002016-05-24T22:07:41.662+04:00Are copts descendants of the ancient egyptians or ...Are copts descendants of the ancient egyptians or are they an admixture of foreign invaders and ancient egyptians,or are they just foreign invaders who adopted egyptian language and culture because their language is close of the ancient egyptian langugagehamburger warriorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10731928720334971256noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-17749406692637744852015-06-16T03:21:41.507+04:002015-06-16T03:21:41.507+04:00"Does anyone know the particular locale of or..."Does anyone know the particular locale of origin for the Muslim Egyptian sample used in this study?<br /><br />Whether they were rural farmers or city-dwellers might make a significant <br />difference in how much their ancestors were affected by admixture since the 7th Century.<br /><br />It's generally assumed that the influx of newcomers to Egypt was concentrated in cities like Cairo and Alexandria, and more in the Delta than in the Thebaid. In older literature, the Muslim Fellahin of the countryside, as well as the Copts, were often cited as good representatives of the pre-Islamic Egyptian populace, if only on physiological grounds."<br /><br /><br />I don't know if they were city-dwellers or rural farmers but they seem to be the usual Lower Egyptian samples passed around between various studies. The study didn't collect the non-Copt Egyptian samples themselves but got them from an outside database. I'll email one of the authors one last question and see if he can give me any details on these Egyptians but they seem like the usual Lower Egyptian samples in studies. To my knowledge; there aren't a great many samples from Upper Egypt (or even samples from all over modern Egypt) in studies.<br /><br />"What we really need is a detailed genetic survey of Egypt by both region and religious affiliation. Better yet, we need that plus ancient DNA from skeletons representing various periods of Egyptian antiquity, from pre-Dynastic times onward."<br /><br /><br />I couldn't agree more to be honest. What I did here with these Copts is really just "reasonable speculating" with some backing; what we truly need is a comprehensive look at Egypt on a genetic level= samples from all over and ancient DNA. We won't have a concrete image of Egypt's demographic history until we do.<br /><br /><br />"Does this have something to do with chemical peculiarities of the mummification process? Or could it just be that political conditions in Egypt had simply made it difficult for scientists to have opportunities to apply the techniques pioneered in recent years to the study of ancient Egyptian remains?"<br /><br />I'm not aware of any real difficulties being posed by some of these ancient remains in Egypt being mummified. But I'm no expert on how to sample mummies, of course. I honestly don't know why there haven't been ancient DNA results from Egypt yet. I can try and think of various explanations like "political issues". The country has been pretty unstable over the last few years and the last few years has been when ancient DNA testing really started taking off so that might be the cause. Awale Ismailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15197677144409342318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-82052173371037829492015-06-15T03:24:39.122+04:002015-06-15T03:24:39.122+04:00Does anyone know the particular locale of origin f...Does anyone know the particular locale of origin for the Muslim Egyptian sample used in this study? <br /><br />Whether they were rural farmers or city-dwellers might make a significant difference in how much their ancestors were affected by admixture since the 7th Century. <br /><br />It's generally assumed that the influx of newcomers to Egypt was concentrated in cities like Cairo and Alexandria, and more in the Delta than in the Thebaid. In older literature, the Muslim Fellahin of the countryside, as well as the Copts, were often cited as good representatives of the pre-Islamic Egyptian populace, if only on physiological grounds.<br /><br />What we really need is a detailed genetic survey of Egypt by both region and religious affiliation. Better yet, we need that plus ancient DNA from skeletons representing various periods of Egyptian antiquity, from pre-Dynastic times onward.<br /><br />I've long been puzzled by the absence of published data on ancient Egyptian genomes at a time when we're getting such a harvest of data on older humans from Europe and Asia. Given the greater abundance of material to work with in Egypt, one would think we'd know a lot more by now. Does this have something to do with chemical peculiarities of the mummification process? Or could it just be that political conditions in Egypt had simply made it difficult for scientists to have opportunities to apply the techniques pioneered in recent years to the study of ancient Egyptian remains?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com