tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post4892481665634338811..comments2024-02-28T23:51:57.118+04:00Comments on Anthromadness: Ancestral North & South Indians and South AsiaUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-671487636347480552016-10-15T04:22:01.182+04:002016-10-15T04:22:01.182+04:00OMG, I thought doing the URL function will work. I...OMG, I thought doing the URL function will work. I will post the links and rewrite some stuff again so you can fully understand my reply. :P<br /><br />Here is the link to the former PM of Malaysia that I read is said to be half or 1/4 Indian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahathir_Mohamad<br /><br />Here is the info about Rajahnate of Cebu in precolonial Philippines that is said to be found by Sri Lumay, a half Tamil half Malay prince from Sumatra: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajahnate_of_Cebu<br /><br />A lot of SE Asians who have S. Indian contact like Thais, Malays, Indonesians like Acehnese, Bataks, Cambodians, Burmese should have some Iran-N like West Eurasian admix. In Iran N. K6, Cambodians score 7% West Eurasian (Iran N+ Natufian): http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8166-Updated-Neolithic-Iranian-Calculator&p=176871&viewfull=1#post176871 <br />while in ANE K6, they score 6.3% West Eurasian(ANE+Natufian, I think the Iran N/Iran-N like is mostly represented by ANE, Natufian- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13O_IYAv4SE8jLO9FKOQ5RiHf4vQeOQbSRWa-KsN7wO4/edit#gid=1957523915<br /><br />Here are the full spreadsheets for both calcs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PWAi-sPU3KniSxgJg-L7CjcXK2K7CXvIrFr8_F-ZhOE/edit#gid=1108042089 <br /><br />*Unfortunately Cambodians are the only SE Asians here but I think they can give an idea of what other SE Asians will score in terms of W. Eurasian ancestry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-66848014938083728532016-10-14T23:43:36.592+04:002016-10-14T23:43:36.592+04:00Hehe no prob. I think the ANI is diverse as well. ...Hehe no prob. I think the ANI is diverse as well. Mostly Caucasus or Iran N-like+ Steppe/Steppe-like.<br /><br /><br />Hmm only N. and E. Euros score very high Sintashta. For Asians, Pamiris have the most with high amounts in other C. and N. South Asians like Gujarat A, B, Punjabi Sikhs. If this is the case, is the Sintashta and other Steppe admix overestimated by many members? Interesting to ponder.<br /><br /><br />Not discrediting any geneticists, is it possible that the model by Lazaridis for high Steppe EMBA/Yamnaya-like admix in the region including Baloch, Brahui, Makrani aren’t accurate? Maybe for them, it is something archaic Indo-European admix that is Steppe-like.<br /><br /><br />Notice your second embolden. :-D The 2nd model is very distinct from the 1st by Lazaridis. Baloch, Brahui, Makrani still have substantial Sintashta-related admix. Or is the admix in the three pops representing some archaic Indo-European admix similar to Steppe?<br /><br /><br />Can you share the estimates by David to measure admixture in these pops?<br /><br /><br />If remember correctly, pops like Tamils, Malayalis are 40-50% W. Eurasian. There were lots of interactions btw S. Indians and SE Asians in trade, religion and culture, and likely lot of intermarriages, absorption of S. Indians into SE Asian society. This [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahathir_Mohamad#cite_note-5]former Malaysian PM [/URL] is said to be 1/2 or 1/4 Indian through his father. Another ex. is Raja Sri Lumay, half Tamil half Malay prince from Sumatra who found[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajahnate_of_Cebu]Cebu Rajahnate in precolonial Philippines.[/URL]<br /><br /><br />A lot of SE Asians who have S. Indian contact like Thais, Malays, Indonesians like Acehnese, Bataks, Cambodians, Burmese should have some Iran-N like West Eurasian admix. In Iran N. K6, Cambodians score [[URL="http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8166-Updated-Neolithic-Iranian-Calculator&p=176871&viewfull=1#post176871"]7% West Eurasian (Iran N+ Natufian)[/URL] while in ANE K6, they score [URL="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13O_IYAv4SE8jLO9FKOQ5RiHf4vQeOQbSRWa-KsN7wO4/edit#gid=1957523915"]6.3% West Eurasian[/URL] (ANE+Natufian, I think the Iran N/Iran-N like is mostly represented by ANE, Natufian). Here are the [URL="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PWAi-sPU3KniSxgJg-L7CjcXK2K7CXvIrFr8_F-ZhOE/edit#gid=1108042089]full spreadsheets for both calcs. [/URL] *Unfortunately Cambodians are the only SE Asians here but I think they can give an idea of what other SE Asians will score in terms of W. Eurasian ancestry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-14004070041338939772016-10-13T14:22:42.104+04:002016-10-13T14:22:42.104+04:00"Very interesting Sheikh!! It seems the ANI p..."Very interesting Sheikh!! It seems the ANI part of South Asians is a lot more complicated than what is originally thought!!"<br /><br />Thanks for taking interest, my friend. :-) And indeed, lots of folks just saw "ANI" as some single/"pure" cluster when the concept just came out but it's clearly a composite rather than wholly some Caucasus-related cluster (though much of it is actually describable in that way). <br /><br />"What I find astonishing is that now Baloch,Brahui and Makrani seem to have quite substantial Steppe_EMBA (Yamnaya-related if I understand correctly) ancestry now based on the figure above. Which to me I found it contradicting to what I learn from other members including Davidski that Baloch, Brahui and Makrani have very little to none Steppe ancestry."<br /><br />Very good point and that is one reason why I emboldened the "perhaps" there. Balochis, Makranis and Brahuis are indeed usually very low on Bronze Age steppe ancestry so any estimate showing them with that much MIGHT be rather suspect, to be honest. The only ADMIXTURE run I've seen that created a straight-up Sintashta cluster would be this old one of Kurd's:<br /><br />https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HazqhPt_EpHrwgjUMNogQvg6vCtf7QkZqiBsb5mWMN8/edit?usp=sharing<br /><br />I didn't share these results initially because the run, in my humble opinion, seems a bit messy in some respects but it is interesting in that you get somewhat similar 5-25% estimates for all of the populations in that chart I made but this time Balochis, Makranis and Brahuis have very little "Sintasta-Steppe-Herder" related admixture (1-3%) which might be more in line with the truth. <br /><br />"Hmm cause a bit of intrigued feeling for me. So even South Indians, Maldivians and Sri Lankans should have some Steppe ancestry as well?"<br /><br />Hmm, I'd say all of these populations probably have just a bit of steppe admixture that mainly shows in their Y-DNA frequencies (i.e. the presence of R1a):<br /><br />http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0050269<br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_South_Asian_populations<br /><br />Though I'm not familiar with the Y-DNA situation in the Maldives. But, overall, I'd say there's probably very little steppe admixture in these groups. I'd be surprised at anything over 1-5%. Though, I think David managed to make estimates over that (I think at just north of 10%? I'd have to double-check to be sure) via using Yamnaya-like samples (one of the reasons why I'm skeptical toward using such steppe herders as their admixture source). But yeah... I'd say groups like Tamils are overwhelmingly "Iran_N-like + ASI" in ancestry. They're much more indicative of some of South Asia's genetic diversity prior to the steppe expansions, from what I've noticed.<br /><br />Nevertheless, sufficient ancient DNA from South and Central Asia should clarify things in due time and you can bet I'll do a post (or posts) on that when the time comes. :-)<br /><br /><br />Awale Ismailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15197677144409342318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-30824043474991745582016-10-13T10:55:35.625+04:002016-10-13T10:55:35.625+04:00Very interesting Sheikh!! It seems the ANI part of...Very interesting Sheikh!! It seems the ANI part of South Asians is a lot more complicated than what is originally thought!! <br /><br />What I find astonishing is that now Baloch,Brahui and Makrani seem to have quite substantial Steppe_EMBA (Yamnaya-related if I understand correctly) ancestry now based on the figure above. Which to me I found it contradicting to what I learn from other members including Davidski that Baloch, Brahui and Makrani have very little to none Steppe ancestry. <br /><br />But now it seems even they have Steppe/Steppe-related ancestry in significant amounts? <br /><br />Hmm cause a bit of intrigued feeling for me. So even South Indians, Maldivians and Sri Lankans should have some Steppe ancestry as well?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-46823072408289657062016-09-19T01:46:06.810+04:002016-09-19T01:46:06.810+04:00Hard question. Due to the smoothness of the geneti...Hard question. Due to the smoothness of the genetic transition between Iranics and Indo-Aryans, I think geography and languages should be taken more into account than genetics when defining the boundary between South Asia and South-Central Asia. Thus the Indo-Aryan regions of Pakistan should better be included within South Asia, leaving the Iranic regions in South-Central Asia. Don't forget, the boundary between South-Central Asia and Central Asia is today purely politically defined, so don't expect consistency in every regional definition.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-16131761465770154112016-09-19T00:34:31.053+04:002016-09-19T00:34:31.053+04:00Hmm, I somewhat see your point there (excluding Tr...Hmm, I somewhat see your point there (excluding Transoxiana). Now... Just curious... How would you personally divide up South Asia (based on genetics)?Awale Ismailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15197677144409342318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-31670393162785269702016-09-18T21:17:15.014+04:002016-09-18T21:17:15.014+04:00Actually I prefer a definition of Greater Khorasan...Actually I prefer a definition of Greater Khorasan excluding Mawarannahr (Transoxiana) and Khwarezm. I think Afghanistan and northern Pakistan can be included in South-Central Asia in genetic studies at least.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-55915991212109546722016-09-18T21:01:28.025+04:002016-09-18T21:01:28.025+04:00Yes, that looks like a better map. I might start u...Yes, that looks like a better map. I might start using it from now on. And, yes all of these "official" mappings vary. Various definitions of "South Asia" don't include Afghanistan, for example. I was surprised the one I used for this post did include it, actually. I often prefer a term like "South-Central Asia" for Greater Khorasan+Pakistan, to be honest.<br /><br />https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2ARnUeK-Y8WdkV0X2Jzb2Z1aUk/view?usp=sharing<br /><br />Awale Ismailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15197677144409342318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-13392185260786735522016-09-18T20:14:45.678+04:002016-09-18T20:14:45.678+04:00Yes, but even the "official" definitions...Yes, but even the "official" definitions of West Asia vary and many of the ones I have seen include the Asian part of Egypt and exclude the European part of Turkey as in this one:<br /><br />https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Western_Asia.pngOnur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-15600563962203746782016-09-18T20:12:01.486+04:002016-09-18T20:12:01.486+04:00Sure, but I was basically just using the "off...Sure, but I was basically just using the "official" map for West Asia and not really one stringently based on genetics. But I agree that "Balkan Turkey" should be counted out and the Sinai Peninsula should probably be counted in. I haven't seen many Sinai Egyptian results though, other than the results of a few "Bedouin" from the region who did actually seem more Southern-Levantine~Arabian-like than "North African Egyptian", if I recall correctly.<br /><br />Thanks for the comment, Onur. :-)Awale Ismailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15197677144409342318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-50396083224166099762016-09-18T19:46:47.613+04:002016-09-18T19:46:47.613+04:00A minor correction to the Western Asia map you use...A minor correction to the Western Asia map you use. That map should have included the Asian part of Egypt in Western Asia and excluded the European part of Turkey from it. This is not just a geographical matter because Balkan Turks are clearly genetically closer to other Balkan peoples than they are to Anatolian Turks (I have seen many Balkan Turkish genetic results to make comparisons) and they genetically cluster with other Balkan peoples rather than with Anatolian Turks, and I suspect Near Eastern Egyptians would genetically cluster with most other Near Eastern Arabs rather than with North African Egyptians if they had been investigated. Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-59494256495028692322016-09-18T17:39:57.840+04:002016-09-18T17:39:57.840+04:00"I don't have any personal preferences in..."I don't have any personal preferences in this context. Proto-Indo-Iranians might have been Steppe_EMBA, Steppe_MLBA, or a mix of both. I'd say a mix of both in varying degrees is probably most likely."<br /><br />Yes, I considered this possibility myself and while I somewhat doubt it; you maybe onto something here indeed. We'll definitely have things be more clear with more ancient DNA rolling in.Awale Ismailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15197677144409342318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-38888846790038848742016-09-18T06:24:54.146+04:002016-09-18T06:24:54.146+04:00My models seem to suggest that Proto-Indo-Iranians...My models seem to suggest that Proto-Indo-Iranians and Indo-Aryans were more Steppe_EMBA than Steppe_MLBA, but doesn't doesn't mean they didn't come from the Andronovo horizon, from which we only have 3 usable samples.<br /><br />Another possibility, albeit less likely one in the context of historical linguistics and archeology, is that they were Catacomb people and basically identical to Yamnaya, thus purely Steppe_EMBA.<br /><br />My models also suggest that early Iranians were more Steppe_MLBA than Steppe_EMBA, and may in fact have been identical to Srubnaya people, who are commonly seen as proto-Iranian.<br /><br />I don't have any personal preferences in this context. Proto-Indo-Iranians might have been Steppe_EMBA, Steppe_MLBA, or a mix of both. I'd say a mix of both in varying degrees is probably most likely.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.com