tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post7079458238515407381..comments2024-02-28T23:51:57.118+04:00Comments on Anthromadness: Some Horn African phenotypes: The Supposed ControversyUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-73029461679166218082017-10-28T09:46:06.220+04:002017-10-28T09:46:06.220+04:00Very informative. Thank youVery informative. Thank youAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-23167979598100948612016-07-15T17:59:45.683+04:002016-07-15T17:59:45.683+04:00"Hi Awale, your blog is interesting and a bre..."Hi Awale, your blog is interesting and a breath of fresh air. My name is James and I am an East African Bantu. It's interesting because you are an ethnic Somali researching and understanding the history and genome of your own people. I have come across so many blogs written by primarily European neo Nazis writing crap."<br /><br />Heh, thanks, man. Good to hear that and yeah... There're a lot of unpleasant people out there peddling pseudoscientific ways of interpreting Human genetic diversity and it's a shame.<br /><br />"What is your stance on the old colonial labels like Caucasian/Caucasoid in reference to you in the Horn?"<br /><br />Simply old-school pseudoscience focused around skull-and-facial morphology. They basically found that Somalis, Habeshas and the like were rather similar to West Eurasians in terms of cranio-form and then came up with these simplistic "sub-races" to explain all of Human diversity ("Negroid", "Caucasoid" etc. etc.). This stuff is pretty obsolete in modern biology and population genetics especially. Somalis and Habeshas are merely, on a basal level, a mixture between pre-historic Africans (who were likely quite similar to modern Southern Sudanese people) & Western Eurasians. Actual population genetics makes things a lot more complex than old-school anthropology implied.Awale Ismailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15197677144409342318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-69967963184039563502016-07-15T13:14:48.436+04:002016-07-15T13:14:48.436+04:00Hi Awale, your blog is interesting and a breath of...Hi Awale, your blog is interesting and a breath of fresh air. My name is James and I am an East African Bantu. It's interesting because you are an ethnic Somali researching and understanding the history and genome of your own people. I have come across so many blogs written by primarily European neo Nazis writing crap. <br /><br /> What is your stance on the old colonial labels like Caucasian/Caucasoid in reference to you in the Horn?duge_buwembohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15671078175031481458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-39701119389374484502016-03-25T23:28:57.307+04:002016-03-25T23:28:57.307+04:00"Kind of off topic but more of a comment to P..."Kind of off topic but more of a comment to PGBK87..imo some horners actually look like a mixture of Nilotes and Southern Indians. :/ I always see these two features especially closer to Sudan or the North East corners of the Red Sea. I have been to Sudan and I thought the people looked somewhat Indian."<br /><br />Sorry, old mate... I'd forgotten about your comment until now. I'd say we might, to some (not to me), resemble South Indians because we're somewhat similar-ish mixtures on a "physical level". Them being a crossing between whatever "Aboriginal South Asian" population (or populaitons) dominates much of the ancestry in groups like Paniyas and then seemingly CHG-related Near Eastern migrants and us being a crossing between a now "extinct" pre-historic Northeast African population quite similar to most of the ancestry in Southern Sudanese groups like Dinkas and migrants from the Near East represented somewhat by the modern "Southwest Asian" and "Mediterranean" clusters if we're focusing on the ancestry in Somalis.<br /><br />"Anyways...Awale, have you factored anything reg skin tone with more African mediated geneflow of Eurasian ancestry by way of Egypt?"<br /><br />No, I can't say I did.<br /><br />"I would think the aboriginal inhabitants of of Egypt would be GG, even after early migrations of U6/M1 and possibly even later migrations if the change in skin color postdates Farming. I wonder what the data of Western Sudanese would be if we have it."<br /><br />I guess I agree with you here. Very very early inhabitants of what is now Egypt before people from West Eurasia began seeping in were probably very pigmented and perhaps even similar to most of the "African" ancestry in modern Horn Africans like Somalis.Awale Ismailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15197677144409342318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-24632039919438537552016-03-25T22:44:57.824+04:002016-03-25T22:44:57.824+04:00where is this myth came from that Ethiopians are l...where is this myth came from that Ethiopians are lighter than Somalis!! both have quite large light %percent,have seen Ethiopians both in the west and Ethiopia and this really not the case,, just my observation.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01521844997716215738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-78639617713924079982016-03-08T14:01:20.066+04:002016-03-08T14:01:20.066+04:00"I felt it was more appropriate to post my qu..."I felt it was more appropriate to post my question/discussion about this topic here. Does the AA,AG,GG gene express itself all the time? What I mean by this is, say I see a light skin Oromo, does this mean he is AA, or Ag, rather than GG? Can he be GG?"<br /><br />I suppose it can depend... One interesting correlation I've seen is that an Eritrean-Tigrinya friend is "GG" and is noticeably more pigmented/"darker" than the rest of his family and then his father, who's noticeably more de-pigmented, is "AG". Was an interesting case as we could both see rather exact correlation in the pigmentation difference between him and his own father. I don't suppose things will always be this exact however, two "AG" or even "AA" individuals don't entirely have to turn out to be the exact same skin-tone. Nearly all of the Somalis whose raw-genetic-data I have are "AG" but there is some variation between us (some are more de-pigmented than others etc.).<br /><br />At any rate, I suggest consulting Razib Khan's post on the genetics involved in all this, he does a good job:<br /><br />http://www.unz.com/gnxp/the-genetic-architecture-natural-history-of-pigmentation/<br /><br />"Prior to you mentioning the alleles, I always assumed the west Eurasian ancestors were a dark skinned group, like many socotra people and that middle easterns sometime later developed lighter skinned."<br /><br />Certain forms of de-pigmentation are relatively "new" developments, I'd say. What you see with modern Northern Europeans for example (requires more genes than just SLC24A5). But somewhat "light-skin" (what you see with various West Asians) doesn't seem THAT young, truth be told. It seems to have existed among the Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers and Anatolian Neolithic Farmers, if I'm not mistaken with the former. So that's a time frame of 7,000-13,000 years at minimum in West Asia.Awale Ismailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15197677144409342318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-69495957696231096652016-03-08T12:54:08.779+04:002016-03-08T12:54:08.779+04:00I felt it was more appropriate to post my questio...I felt it was more appropriate to post my question/discussion about this topic here. Does the AA,AG,GG gene express itself all the time? What I mean by this is, say I see a light skin Oromo, does this mean he is AA, or Ag, rather than GG? Can he be GG?<br /><br />The reason I ask this question is because couldn't it be possible for the west Eurasian ancestors in horners be both darker skinned (like many people in Socotra)and carry the AA allele without expressing it in their phenotype? <br /><br />I suppose however like you mentioned in your blog post that the wide display of skin color (as well as hair texture) in just 1 Somali or any other groups family could be evidence that they indeed would have been as light as MENA people today. I mean I've seen some Somalis and Eritreans who are pretty much as light as a darker "Arab" (excluding the very few arabians who are about as dark as a normal horner). <br /><br />Prior to you mentioning the alleles, I always assumed the west Eurasian ancestors were a dark skinned group, like many socotra people and that middle easterns sometime later developed lighter skinned. <br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17355952126473722196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-3449747720227192192016-03-03T18:07:30.385+04:002016-03-03T18:07:30.385+04:00Kind of off topic but more of a comment to PGBK87....Kind of off topic but more of a comment to PGBK87..imo some horners actually look like a mixture of Nilotes and Southern Indians. :/ I always see these two features especially closer to Sudan or the North East corners of the Red Sea. I have been to Sudan and I thought the people looked somewhat Indian.<br /><br />Anyways...Awale, have you factored anything reg skin tone with more African mediated geneflow of Eurasian ancestry by way of Egypt?<br /><br />I would think the aboriginal inhabitants of of Egypt would be GG, even after early migrations of U6/M1 and possibly even later migrations if the change in skin color postdates Farming. I wonder what the data of Western Sudanese would be if we have it.astenbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11139602696907365942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-41979178023461118942016-02-06T14:39:59.884+04:002016-02-06T14:39:59.884+04:00I've explained in the past why I put "Afr...I've explained in the past why I put "Africans" in quotation marks:<br /><br />https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2ARnUeK-Y8WY0Ryb3QyQTIzS28/view?usp=sharing<br /><br />I don't do this with Europeans because Europe isn't exactly a very physically and genetically diverse region in comparison to Africa. There's nothing malicious going on if that's what you're trying to gauge.<br /><br />But thanks for the heads up, I'll add that link to the "Africans" part to prevent future confusion.Awale Ismailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15197677144409342318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-88869647146089245102016-02-06T08:32:03.414+04:002016-02-06T08:32:03.414+04:00I have a question. In this quote:
"It accoun...I have a question. In this quote:<br /><br />"It accounts for roughly 1/3 of the pigmentation difference between Europeans and "Africans","<br /><br />Why didn't you put Europeans in quotation marks?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-53741920048574125752016-02-03T20:36:30.746+04:002016-02-03T20:36:30.746+04:00Hehehe, it's fine, man. No worries. And you...Hehehe, it's fine, man. No worries. And you're welcome. ;-)<br /><br />But overall, I agree with you. You can generally tell the "overall" difference between Somalis and various Highlanders from a glance. A lot of over-lap is prevalent but overall; we look more SIMILAR than "the same" by far. In fact, I'd say this is the case between us and Afars too.Awale Ismailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15197677144409342318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-47691252905238766072016-02-03T15:43:57.614+04:002016-02-03T15:43:57.614+04:00Haha, I am sorry Awale. But thanks for your input....Haha, I am sorry Awale. But thanks for your input. Zamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04211154604811876852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-85025011977546832702016-02-03T09:15:29.953+04:002016-02-03T09:15:29.953+04:00It's probably due to the "later" ele...It's probably due to the "later" elements in Habeshas and other Highlanders. The greater Omotic/Ethiopic-related influence & the later West Eurasian-related gene flows. These factors plus subsequent selection are probably responsible for the differences you and Drobbah and others have noticed.<br /><br />There is a solid amount of over-lap in looks apparent though. Some highlanders can look incredibly Somali and vice-versa. My own mother is very often taken for a "Habesha" rather than a Somali. Some Habeshas have a hard-time stomaching that she isn't "one of them". However I'd say Oromos in general, on average, always seemed to over-lap with Somalis more than Habeshas do but they're a pretty heterogeneous bunch, something we notice from a genetic perspective too. But even then I've personally always felt they over-lapped with us more. Just a personal observation.<br /><br />I know I said we should cease and desist with this sort of talk but you guys clearly aren't listening so... Fuck it.Awale Ismailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15197677144409342318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-58711479459418882822016-02-03T03:32:44.656+04:002016-02-03T03:32:44.656+04:00I noticed that it is very easy to tell apart Eri-E...I noticed that it is very easy to tell apart Eri-Ethiopian highlanders from ethnic Somalis. I can't pin it to one specific trait, but just the overall look. <br /><br />Which is quite interesting since there is a large overlap between the two (~80% similar ancestry). <br /><br />Meanwhile with Angolans vs Zulus, I have an extremely difficult time telling them apart. They too have roughly a ~80% ancestry overlap, but somehow do not look that differentiated.Zamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04211154604811876852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-4781661082111483472016-02-03T03:18:33.121+04:002016-02-03T03:18:33.121+04:00I agree with pgbk87's assessment for the most ...I agree with pgbk87's assessment for the most part.Zamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04211154604811876852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-28990238672234449672016-02-02T18:56:21.768+04:002016-02-02T18:56:21.768+04:00I think what you see in Somalis and other Cushites...I think what you see in Somalis and other Cushites like the Afar, is a founder effect followed by specific sexual selection. The "African" ancestors of Somalis were primarily tall and slender, had high rounded foreheads, likely had nappy hair and were Nilotic/Andamanese/Bouganville Islander level dark. <br /><br />The Amharas and Oromos have been integrating other groups (Cushitic, Omotic and even Nilotic speakers) into their own for a long time, so there is more room for variation.pgbk87https://www.blogger.com/profile/03396840439942713319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-86054876338549641122016-02-02T07:38:46.136+04:002016-02-02T07:38:46.136+04:00"What I have noticed among horners is that th..."What I have noticed among horners is that the Habesha are much more lighter on average compared to Somali who can get as dark as the South Sudanese. Why is that?"<br /><br />There are plenty of Habeshas (particularly in the Horn) who can be "as dark as the South Sudanese" or who are generally pretty heavily pigmented. You'll spot enough in this procession of sorts at Aksum:<br /><br />https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B2ARnUeK-Y8WNWpmRUhLM1JsZDQ&usp=sharing<br /><br />There's overall not a HUGE difference in skin-tone between the two groups and ultimately it depends on what "subsets" of them you're even comparing. If you compare Western diaspora Somalis (like in the UK) to Tigrinyas in Tigray; the Western diasporan Somalis are more de-pigmented on average in my humble opinion but of course there's a strong difference between Western diaspora Tigrinyas and Somalis in Northern Somalia (a rather arid region that gets a lot more Sun than somewhere like Sweden or the UK), where the former is notably less pigmented. <br /><br />If you compare the two western diaspora groups (peoples residing in the "same environment") then there is still a difference and the Habeshas can seem more de-pigmented on average. These are just my own observations. Why are things like that? To be fully honest: I don't know. Just plain Selection? Habeshas' later West Eurasian elements taking effect? Both? Again, these little details are messy and even a little silly to try and decode with our current data.<br /><br />"I also wonder what the Afars would get in the rs1426654 SNP."<br /><br />Keep in mind how the climate various Horn groups reside in can take its toll. Afars are by majority still pastoral nomads, a great many of whom live in the Danakil Desert (one of the world's most unforgiving deserts) & barely even have a diaspora so a good amount of their "natural pigmentation levels" are probably being skewed by this environment similar to how Western diaspora Somalis and Habeshas are noticeably less pigmented than their rural homeland counterparts in my experience. <br /><br />Anyway, let's end it here with comments of this sort where we try and "de-code" how certain Horn groups' differences came about. This is frankly one reason why I long hesitated about making this blog post.<br /><br />There are lots of problems with discussions like this... I.e. we're going off a person's own observations "I find this group to be lighter on average. Why is that?" it won't take long for discussions like this to devolve into "race-forum" type nonsense if other more "flamboyant" characters decide to interject with their opinions on how they think a group looks on average. I know that's not what you intended though but yeah... There's also the case of disagreements taking place... Someone might, by their experiences, not feel the same about a group's overall phenotype and then there's not even going to be a truly fruitful exchange. It's a silly and messy business. Even my own meanderings into the skin-tone differences between certain Horn groups suffer from being biased as they're based on my own experiences over the years.Awale Ismailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15197677144409342318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-15350991475706246792016-02-01T02:23:55.762+04:002016-02-01T02:23:55.762+04:00This is really interesting.As I'm myself AG an...This is really interesting.As I'm myself AG and is generally very lightskinned(In Africa lol).In my immediate family I have dark skin,light skin and also mariin(dark reddish skintone). <br /><br />What I have noticed among horners is that the Habesha are much more lighter on average compared to Somali who can get as dark as the South Sudanese.Why is that? <br /><br />Also Somalis have a greater frequency in my opinion to have softer curly hair or straight hair(like my father who people think is tamil) then Habesha,Oromos and other Ethiopians other then Afars(who are similiar to us in hair form).Would this maybe explain the omotic influence in these groups? Is the omotic component the main reason even with elevated eurasian levels of 10% over us somalis they still have very "nappy" hair? <br /><br />Obviously I don't expect you to answer these questions with full scientifically backed answers but is just something I thought of when interacting with all the different horner groups I have personally met.I also wonder what the Afars would get in the rs1426654 SNP.Drobbahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11466433444684753160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-31273808144974619742016-01-31T20:25:01.532+04:002016-01-31T20:25:01.532+04:00Whoa there, amigo. This ain't ABF or something...Whoa there, amigo. This ain't ABF or something, no need for all those modern ethnic group picture shares. *evilgrin-emoticon* But yeah, my teasing aside, I think it's a bit messy to try and reconstruct deeper details without remains (stuff like the presence of "prognathism" for example) but we're on a similar boat in regards to the "two basal sides" of Horners' ancestors' physical features in a broader sense (in respect to skin-tone, hair texture, the vagaries of their facial morphology and so on), I suppose. Granted, I wouldn't be shocked if the Southwestern Arabian element in Habeshas somewhat resembled Yemenite Jews from a physical standpoint. We'll see someday with ancient DNA and such, I hope.<br /><br />Thanks for the comment, hombre. :)Awale Ismailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15197677144409342318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4186229413936536043.post-81572520636770543452016-01-31T18:57:02.198+04:002016-01-31T18:57:02.198+04:00I can easily see the main "African" ance...I can easily see the main "African" ancestors of Cushites and Ethio-Semites looking like this, very dark skin and low occurrence of prognathism:<br /><br />https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d2/f8/31/d2f831517df7b44bd9cfaffd63976c49.jpg<br /><br />http://i5.xitek.cn/forum/pics/201207/1921/192190/192190_1341670962.jpg<br /><br />https://www.culturalsurvival.org/sites/default/files/styles/main_image_full_width/public/images/anuakwoman_1.jpg?itok=XPuvfP1v<br /><br /><br />Mixing with very narrow-faced, Southwest Asian people who looked essentially like this (obviously less attractive on average):<br /><br />http://i25.tinypic.com/vpb5fp.jpg<br /><br />http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1327758!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/handsome26n-1-web.jpg<br /><br /><br />Ethiopians then have a layer of ancestry from peoples who looked like this (possibly basal(?) to their ancestry):<br /><br />http://www.interestingfacts.org/facts-images/hadza-people.jpg<br /><br /><br />Plus a more recent intrusion of something like this, but possibly slighty lighter skinned:<br /><br />https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5287/5240250497_91725efc5e_z.jpgpgbk87https://www.blogger.com/profile/03396840439942713319noreply@blogger.com